RE: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF

> Your email seems like a considered argument, but I'd like to point out a
> couple of flaws. First, the reason hunters predominately shoot
> other hunters
> is that they are in the woods. The reason the rest of the
> population doesn't
> get shot in hunting accidents is because they are in downtown
> Denver. Since
> we live in the woods, we are much more likely to get shot than the general
> population.

Paul,
I understand what you're saying. It does seem to
be based more on emotion than facts. You argue that because
we live in the woods, we're "more likely to get shot". I'd
be curious to hear about the last non-hunter shot in a
hunting accident in Colorado. I suspect it's very rare.
In 20 years, the number of addresses that get mail delivery
on Magnolia has only increased 10%, and I don't recall anyone
being shot by a hunter on Magnolia. The risk of being shot
if you're a hunter in Colorado is very low to begin with.
Even if it were as great for us as for hunters, it's still
very, very low.

> My other point is that this is not an all or nothing solution.
Unfortunately, any limits that would be large enough to
be effective would eliminate hunting.
> While I am not a fan of hunting per se, I do agree that there may be some
> benefits. However, I think that it is criminal that during the best hiking
> weather of the year, the woods are full of "characters" with high powered
> rifles. I would like hunting season to be set up with a minimum of one day
> per week and one long weekend per month that are hunter free. In this way,
> the rest of us can enjoy some time in the woods without the risk
> of getting
> shot.

This is where you show your emotional reaction to hunting. Hunters are
"characters"? Hunters are very typical of the population, as a whole,
with the exception that they tend to be more responsible, having jobs,
expensive rifles, taking the classes and buying licenses, etc.

Again, you refer to the "risk of getting shot". What exactly is
that risk? The numbers that I presented earlier showed that the risk
was exceedingly small, and even if you think we're as likely
as a hunter to be shot, they're still exceedingly small.

I've walked through the forest, often with my dogs, almost every
day for twenty years. I've never felt the least bit threatened by
hunters in that time, and I've never changed my plans, or picked
a different trail because it was hunting season. Maybe I'm just
lucky, but I doubt it.

John

Re: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF

John,
Your email seems like a considered argument, but I'd like to point out a
couple of flaws. First, the reason hunters predominately shoot other hunters
is that they are in the woods. The reason the rest of the population doesn't
get shot in hunting accidents is because they are in downtown Denver. Since
we live in the woods, we are much more likely to get shot than the general
population. My other point is that this is not an all or nothing solution.
While I am not a fan of hunting per se, I do agree that there may be some
benefits. However, I think that it is criminal that during the best hiking
weather of the year, the woods are full of "characters" with high powered
rifles. I would like hunting season to be set up with a minimum of one day
per week and one long weekend per month that are hunter free. In this way,
the rest of us can enjoy some time in the woods without the risk of getting
shot.
My 2 cents,
Paul K

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Carder" <jcarder@topline-charts.com>
To: <David.Bahr@colorado.edu>; "PUMA News" <puma-news@www.puma-net.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 1:05 PM
Subject: RE: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF

> > I fear that I tread onto dangerous and impassioned waters, but here's my
2
> > cents...
>
> Don't worry. I'll treat you as a reasonable person with a right to his
> opinion. I may take the opportunity to attempt to change that opinion
> with information, as you are attempting with me. In the end, we're both
> individuals, and we'll make up our own minds.
>
> Incidentally, I do not hunt. I don't have anything against hunting, and
> probably would hunt in the right situation, but I've never hunted. Living
> up here, I don't see any real sport in opening the back door on the second
> floor and squeezing a trigger (all that would be necessary). Living alone,
> I'd have a lot of meat to store, although wild game can be delicious. What
> I'm trying to say is that I'm not a knee-jerk, "hunters are always right",
> person. I do think, and believe it or not, I actually do change my mind.
> Fifteen years ago, I was a conservative. I actually thought the first
> Iraq invasion was a good idea. Today, I'm a libertarian, who realizes that
> both Iraq invasions are mistakes. Now that we're there, I support our
> troops, but I do NOT believe we should have sent them. It's one example
> that my beliefs are not etched in stone.
>
> > I have had someone point a gun at me on a spur road off of 359 (clay
> > shooters). Two years ago I had a resident shoot at me on the
> > east end of the
> > aquaduct "trail". And several years ago I had someone shoot at me on
Mt.
> > Thoridon while running trails. From personal experience I would
> > argue that the
> > problem with guns on forest lands is real and dangerous. I feel
> > like a target,
> > and I believe that my dog is at even greater risk. I've learned to
avoid
> > certain trails on Magnolia during hunting season.
> Did you report any of these incidents to the appropriate Sheriff (Boulder
or
> Gilpin County). If they're as you described, they're guilty of reckless
> endangerment, at the least. If they're as you described, they should be
> prosecuted. Not reporting incidents like this to the authorities may be
> easier emotionally (avoiding the conflict), but it encourages the idiots
> to do it again, and they typically are emboldened to act in an even more
> dangerous manner, next time.
>
> The real question is not whether some idiots with guns have done
> foolish or criminal acts. The question is whether additional limits
> on hunting will improve or hurt the quality of life in the area.
>
> > We already limit hunting within a certain distance from roads, so
> > it is not a
> > stretch to limit hunting within a certain distance of our
> > neighborhoods. And
> > those who would argue that this removes too much land from hunting
should
> > encourage the preservation of more land.
> Hunting on public lands is currently legal, with a license, observing
> the proper precautions. Hunting on private land is only legal with
> the owner's permission. Crossing private land to access public land
> is not legal without the owner's permission (unless there is an
> existing easement, aka 'forest access'). So, no one is hunting in
> your neighborhood, unless one of your neighbors allows it. You
> suggest a "certain distance from our neighborhoods". The implication
> is that this distance will make your neighborhood safe from a
> hunter's errant shot. It's time for a few facts.
>
> 1) Laws were passed in 1970 in Colorado. As a result,
> "Everyone born on or after January 1, 1949, must successfully
> complete a hunter education course and hold a valid hunter education
> card/certificate before purchasing any hunting license. A valid hunter
> education card/certificate and the appropriate license(s) must be in
> your possession when purchasing a license and while hunting."
>
> These courses drill into hunters both the maximum dangerous ranges
> of their weapons and the fact that the hunter is liable for their
> shots, errant or not. Hunters are not eager for jail time or being
> hit with massive civil penalties. In the 1960s, Colorado averaged
> nine hunting fatalities a year. The laws were passed in 1970, and
> Colorado averaged 1.3 fatalities a year in the 1990s, with NONE in
> 1999 (the last data I could find). In other words, the classes worked.
>
> Colorado harvests about 60,000 mule deer per year (harvest means killed
> by a hunter). That bounces between 40,000 and 90,000 but has been in that
> range since 1970. In other words, over the last 35 years, roughly
> two million, one hundred thousand mule deer have been harvested. How
> many residents have been killed, or even injured, by errant shots in
> the last 35 years? I don't know, but if it's even a couple, I'd be
> surprised. I'm not including hunters shooting other hunters, since
> you're concerned about your neighborhood. I'm only counting mule deer,
> not elk, small game or other animals. In other words, the chances that
> a hunter's shot will kill a resident (non-hunter) are roughly comparable
> to the chances that resident will be hit by lightning. At this altitude,
> they're probably significantly less than that (since we're much more
> likely to be hit by lightning than average). Here's some statistics:
> >From 1990 to 2003, 39 people died from lightning strikes in Colorado,
> almost 3 a year. Compare that with the 1.3 hunting fatalities a year
> in Colorado. You're TWICE as likely to be killed by lightning! It's
> actually MUCH greater than that, because almost all of the hunting
> fatalities are other hunters, not residents in neighborhoods.
>
> 2) What "certain distance from neighborhoods" would be appropriate?
> When designing shooting ranges, they determine the downrange safety
> zones by calculating the nominal maximum range of the round being
> fired. Any round that would be used on a mule deer would have a
> nominal maximum range of at least 4,000 meters, and those used on
> elk are often as high as 6,300 meters. If you're going to prohibit
> hunting within 4,000 meters of a "neighborhood", you've drawn 2.5 mile
> circles around every neighborhood, and essentially prohibited hunting
> anywhere in the County, and most of the State.
>
> > There are many alternative solutions to the problem of
> > overpopulation. Re-
> > introduction of predators is one solution. Decreased fencing (designed
to
> > discourage predators). Fewer dogs that discourage coyotes. Any
resulting
> > predator/prey population cycles are also very natural. On
> > uninhabited islands
> > (e.g., Isle Royale), the wolf and moose populations follow this
> > cycle and get
> > along just fine that way without human intervention. I'll take
> > the boom in
> > mountain lions -- I fear mountain lions far less than men with guns.
> I believe that last statement explains your comments quite well.
> The fact is that you are MUCH more likely to be killed by a mountain
> lion than by a hunter. That's a fact. Almost every year, someone in
> Colorado is killed by a cougar, often more than one person. I can't
> recall the last resident who was mistakenly shot by a hunter.
>
> I learned to shoot when I was 12. I was taught in a supervised class,
> with qualified instructors. I took that class for three consecutive
> summers. A gun is a tool, just like a car or a chainsaw. If people
> are irresponsible, they will drive under the influence of alcohol,
> or shoot under the influence. I had a neighbor that actually used
> a chainsaw drunk. I didn't want to be anywhere near him. My point
> is that people are responsible for their actions. In the US, we do
> NOT assume that they will act irresponsibly first. We hold them
> responsible for their actions, and expect that the fear of punishment
> will have an effect. The alternative is to assume everyone is guilty
> until proven innocent.
>
> My point is that you have chosen to live in the Rockies. We have a long
> history of using guns as tools here. Just a year or two before she died,
> Edith Skates carried her shotgun out with her to explain to some mountian
> bikers that they couldn't cut across her private property. Edith was
always
> polite, but she was firm and direct, and expected the bikers to be
> responsible. She would never have considered pointing the gun at them,
> but she brought it along, just in case. After all, she was 90 <grin>.
>
> If you're more frightened by a gun than a cougar, I suggest that you
> learn a bit about guns. Statistically, in the US, a car is much more
> likely to kill someone than a gun is (there are many more guns in this
> country than cars, and 42,673 traffic fatalities in 2003 in the US (632
> in Colorado). And I'm including guns used in the commission of crimes.
> Cars don't seem to scare people. I expect that's because of their
> familiarity with cars. I'd also suggest that you learn about hunting.
> If you do, you won't be frightened when you see a hunter.
>
> > Alternative solutions come with their own problems, and obviously not
all
> > hunters are irresponsible. But mistakes can happen too easily
> > with far too
> > serious consequences.
>
> To summarize, will additional limits on hunting improve or hurt
> the quality of life here? Cougar already kill more people in
> Colorado than hunters. Removing the harvesting would increase that
> statistic dramatically, because it would increase the numbers of
> cougar, deer and elk. There is much less risk of being shot
> by a hunter than of being hit by lightning, so there is very
> little to gain by prohibiting hunting on Magnolia. There is
> a lot to lose. Beyond the increased cougar risk, you are likely
> condemning deer and elk to death by starvation and Chronic Wasting
> Disease (may be another prion disease, like mad cow). We already
> have a large population of non-human predators, so I don't know what
> you would "re-introduce". Wolves? While I wouldn't object to
> wolves, I suspect the ranchers would not be pleased, and they
> were here before we were. Ranchers aren't going to want less
> effective fencing, either. While you say that the predator/prey
> cycles are "very natural", so is extinction. When man presses
> on a chaotic predator/prey system (by removing hunting), it
> results in extremes. The worst CWD in the state is at Estes
> Park, because hunting is essentially outlawed.
>
> I have no idea whether this has influenced your opinion, but
> I had to try.
>
> John Carder
>

RE: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF

This discussion has me thinking of an "alternative solution:" we equip all
deer and elk with little lightning-rod hats. That way, fewer hunting permits
could be issued, possibly alleviating some of the anxiety of getting hit by an
errant shot, AND, for those of us who enjoy an occasional meal of wild game,
it would come pre-cooked and delivered.

And while we're at it, let's strap one of those hats on the S-O-B cougar that
mauled my dog last year. BTW, I'm not volunteering for THAT job.

Facetiously yours,
-Brian

RE: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF

> I fear that I tread onto dangerous and impassioned waters, but here's my 2
> cents...

Don't worry. I'll treat you as a reasonable person with a right to his
opinion. I may take the opportunity to attempt to change that opinion
with information, as you are attempting with me. In the end, we're both
individuals, and we'll make up our own minds.

Incidentally, I do not hunt. I don't have anything against hunting, and
probably would hunt in the right situation, but I've never hunted. Living
up here, I don't see any real sport in opening the back door on the second
floor and squeezing a trigger (all that would be necessary). Living alone,
I'd have a lot of meat to store, although wild game can be delicious. What
I'm trying to say is that I'm not a knee-jerk, "hunters are always right",
person. I do think, and believe it or not, I actually do change my mind.
Fifteen years ago, I was a conservative. I actually thought the first
Iraq invasion was a good idea. Today, I'm a libertarian, who realizes that
both Iraq invasions are mistakes. Now that we're there, I support our
troops, but I do NOT believe we should have sent them. It's one example
that my beliefs are not etched in stone.

> I have had someone point a gun at me on a spur road off of 359 (clay
> shooters). Two years ago I had a resident shoot at me on the
> east end of the
> aquaduct "trail". And several years ago I had someone shoot at me on Mt.
> Thoridon while running trails. From personal experience I would
> argue that the
> problem with guns on forest lands is real and dangerous. I feel
> like a target,
> and I believe that my dog is at even greater risk. I've learned to avoid
> certain trails on Magnolia during hunting season.
Did you report any of these incidents to the appropriate Sheriff (Boulder or
Gilpin County). If they're as you described, they're guilty of reckless
endangerment, at the least. If they're as you described, they should be
prosecuted. Not reporting incidents like this to the authorities may be
easier emotionally (avoiding the conflict), but it encourages the idiots
to do it again, and they typically are emboldened to act in an even more
dangerous manner, next time.

The real question is not whether some idiots with guns have done
foolish or criminal acts. The question is whether additional limits
on hunting will improve or hurt the quality of life in the area.

> We already limit hunting within a certain distance from roads, so
> it is not a
> stretch to limit hunting within a certain distance of our
> neighborhoods. And
> those who would argue that this removes too much land from hunting should
> encourage the preservation of more land.
Hunting on public lands is currently legal, with a license, observing
the proper precautions. Hunting on private land is only legal with
the owner's permission. Crossing private land to access public land
is not legal without the owner's permission (unless there is an
existing easement, aka 'forest access'). So, no one is hunting in
your neighborhood, unless one of your neighbors allows it. You
suggest a "certain distance from our neighborhoods". The implication
is that this distance will make your neighborhood safe from a
hunter's errant shot. It's time for a few facts.

1) Laws were passed in 1970 in Colorado. As a result,
"Everyone born on or after January 1, 1949, must successfully
complete a hunter education course and hold a valid hunter education
card/certificate before purchasing any hunting license. A valid hunter
education card/certificate and the appropriate license(s) must be in
your possession when purchasing a license and while hunting."

These courses drill into hunters both the maximum dangerous ranges
of their weapons and the fact that the hunter is liable for their
shots, errant or not. Hunters are not eager for jail time or being
hit with massive civil penalties. In the 1960s, Colorado averaged
nine hunting fatalities a year. The laws were passed in 1970, and
Colorado averaged 1.3 fatalities a year in the 1990s, with NONE in
1999 (the last data I could find). In other words, the classes worked.

Colorado harvests about 60,000 mule deer per year (harvest means killed
by a hunter). That bounces between 40,000 and 90,000 but has been in that
range since 1970. In other words, over the last 35 years, roughly
two million, one hundred thousand mule deer have been harvested. How
many residents have been killed, or even injured, by errant shots in
the last 35 years? I don't know, but if it's even a couple, I'd be
surprised. I'm not including hunters shooting other hunters, since
you're concerned about your neighborhood. I'm only counting mule deer,
not elk, small game or other animals. In other words, the chances that
a hunter's shot will kill a resident (non-hunter) are roughly comparable
to the chances that resident will be hit by lightning. At this altitude,
they're probably significantly less than that (since we're much more
likely to be hit by lightning than average). Here's some statistics:
From 1990 to 2003, 39 people died from lightning strikes in Colorado,
almost 3 a year. Compare that with the 1.3 hunting fatalities a year
in Colorado. You're TWICE as likely to be killed by lightning! It's
actually MUCH greater than that, because almost all of the hunting
fatalities are other hunters, not residents in neighborhoods.

2) What "certain distance from neighborhoods" would be appropriate?
When designing shooting ranges, they determine the downrange safety
zones by calculating the nominal maximum range of the round being
fired. Any round that would be used on a mule deer would have a
nominal maximum range of at least 4,000 meters, and those used on
elk are often as high as 6,300 meters. If you're going to prohibit
hunting within 4,000 meters of a "neighborhood", you've drawn 2.5 mile
circles around every neighborhood, and essentially prohibited hunting
anywhere in the County, and most of the State.

> There are many alternative solutions to the problem of
> overpopulation. Re-
> introduction of predators is one solution. Decreased fencing (designed to
> discourage predators). Fewer dogs that discourage coyotes. Any resulting
> predator/prey population cycles are also very natural. On
> uninhabited islands
> (e.g., Isle Royale), the wolf and moose populations follow this
> cycle and get
> along just fine that way without human intervention. I'll take
> the boom in
> mountain lions -- I fear mountain lions far less than men with guns.
I believe that last statement explains your comments quite well.
The fact is that you are MUCH more likely to be killed by a mountain
lion than by a hunter. That's a fact. Almost every year, someone in
Colorado is killed by a cougar, often more than one person. I can't
recall the last resident who was mistakenly shot by a hunter.

I learned to shoot when I was 12. I was taught in a supervised class,
with qualified instructors. I took that class for three consecutive
summers. A gun is a tool, just like a car or a chainsaw. If people
are irresponsible, they will drive under the influence of alcohol,
or shoot under the influence. I had a neighbor that actually used
a chainsaw drunk. I didn't want to be anywhere near him. My point
is that people are responsible for their actions. In the US, we do
NOT assume that they will act irresponsibly first. We hold them
responsible for their actions, and expect that the fear of punishment
will have an effect. The alternative is to assume everyone is guilty
until proven innocent.

My point is that you have chosen to live in the Rockies. We have a long
history of using guns as tools here. Just a year or two before she died,
Edith Skates carried her shotgun out with her to explain to some mountian
bikers that they couldn't cut across her private property. Edith was always
polite, but she was firm and direct, and expected the bikers to be
responsible. She would never have considered pointing the gun at them,
but she brought it along, just in case. After all, she was 90 <grin>.

If you're more frightened by a gun than a cougar, I suggest that you
learn a bit about guns. Statistically, in the US, a car is much more
likely to kill someone than a gun is (there are many more guns in this
country than cars, and 42,673 traffic fatalities in 2003 in the US (632
in Colorado). And I'm including guns used in the commission of crimes.
Cars don't seem to scare people. I expect that's because of their
familiarity with cars. I'd also suggest that you learn about hunting.
If you do, you won't be frightened when you see a hunter.

> Alternative solutions come with their own problems, and obviously not all
> hunters are irresponsible. But mistakes can happen too easily
> with far too
> serious consequences.

To summarize, will additional limits on hunting improve or hurt
the quality of life here? Cougar already kill more people in
Colorado than hunters. Removing the harvesting would increase that
statistic dramatically, because it would increase the numbers of
cougar, deer and elk. There is much less risk of being shot
by a hunter than of being hit by lightning, so there is very
little to gain by prohibiting hunting on Magnolia. There is
a lot to lose. Beyond the increased cougar risk, you are likely
condemning deer and elk to death by starvation and Chronic Wasting
Disease (may be another prion disease, like mad cow). We already
have a large population of non-human predators, so I don't know what
you would "re-introduce". Wolves? While I wouldn't object to
wolves, I suspect the ranchers would not be pleased, and they
were here before we were. Ranchers aren't going to want less
effective fencing, either. While you say that the predator/prey
cycles are "very natural", so is extinction. When man presses
on a chaotic predator/prey system (by removing hunting), it
results in extremes. The worst CWD in the state is at Estes
Park, because hunting is essentially outlawed.

I have no idea whether this has influenced your opinion, but
I had to try.

John Carder

RE: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF

I fear that I tread onto dangerous and impassioned waters, but here's my 2
cents...

I have had someone point a gun at me on a spur road off of 359 (clay
shooters). Two years ago I had a resident shoot at me on the east end of the
aquaduct "trail". And several years ago I had someone shoot at me on Mt.
Thoridon while running trails. From personal experience I would argue that the
problem with guns on forest lands is real and dangerous. I feel like a target,
and I believe that my dog is at even greater risk. I've learned to avoid
certain trails on Magnolia during hunting season.

We already limit hunting within a certain distance from roads, so it is not a
stretch to limit hunting within a certain distance of our neighborhoods. And
those who would argue that this removes too much land from hunting should
encourage the preservation of more land.

There are many alternative solutions to the problem of overpopulation. Re-
introduction of predators is one solution. Decreased fencing (designed to
discourage predators). Fewer dogs that discourage coyotes. Any resulting
predator/prey population cycles are also very natural. On uninhabited islands
(e.g., Isle Royale), the wolf and moose populations follow this cycle and get
along just fine that way without human intervention. I'll take the boom in
mountain lions -- I fear mountain lions far less than men with guns.

Alternative solutions come with their own problems, and obviously not all
hunters are irresponsible. But mistakes can happen too easily with far too
serious consequences.

David Bahr

___________________________________________

Quoting John Carder <jcarder@topline-charts.com>:

> Greg,
>
> While I understand your concerns, I have to point
> out that there are real reasons to encourage
> hunting in the area.
>
> Without hunting, you have overpopulation of both
> deer and elk. That leads to death by starvation,
> and high population densities have been correlated
> with Chronic Wasting Disease. We've been relatively
> unnaffected by CWD here on Magnolia, but Sugarloaf
> has quite a bit of it. Some say that's because they
> have too many deer and elk (relative to the food
> and predators).
>
> Without hunting you create a boom in predators,
> primarily cougar. Then as more cougar are able to
> thin the herds more effectively, they get hungry.
> This boom/bust in predator/prey populations is
> one of the classic examples of chaos theory.
> A cougar is much more likely to take your dog
> than any hunter, in normal times. A hungry cougar
> presents a danger to all of us.
>
> We live in the forest. This is the habitat for
> deer, elk & cougar. We've artificially decreased
> the cougar population, so we need human hunters
> to help thin the herds.
>
> In other words, there are always unforeseen
> consequences associated with sweeping changes
> like limiting hunting. Consider what they
> might be before persuing a "feel-good"
> move, like limiting hunting.
>
> John Carder
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Greg Ching [mailto:greg.ching@mric.coop]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:11 AM
> > To: PUMA News
> > Cc: cookie@theshannons.net
> > Subject: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF
> >
> >
> > FYI, here is a petition along Sugarloaf Road that may interest some
> > folks along Magnolia. I know I worry where I take my dog on walks
> > during hunting season....
> >
> > greg
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: [info] BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF
> > Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:13:33 -0600
> > From: Ruth Shannon <cookie@theshannons.net>
> > Reply-To: Ruth Shannon <cookie@theshannons.net>
> > Organization: theshannons
> > To: Shannon, Cookie <cookie@theshannons.net>
> > References: <BF154913.124A%art-nancy@earthlink.net>
> > <opsuwqqdjtyigpt0@d71q4s51>
> >
> > ------- Forwarded message -------
> > From: "Art and Nancy" <art-nancy@earthlink.net>
> > To: cookie@theshannons.net
> > Subject: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF
> > Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:00:18 -0600
> >
> > COOKIE - HERE IS INFORMATION ON OUR WORK TO BAN HUNTING IN THE SUGARLOAF
> > AREA. ATTACKED IS A COPY OF THE PETITION. THANK YOU FOR SENDING IT OUT.
> >
> > ART GNEISER
> >
> > SUGARLOAF RESIDENTS
> >
> > By now you should have received this information by snail mail. Here is a
> > backup from cyberspace -------
> >
> > For the past few years a group of local homeowners, led by Jillian Weems
> > and
> > Marcia Barber, have been trying to reduce and hopefully eliminate hunting
> > in
> > the most populated parts of the Sugarloaf area. Last fall, through our
> > efforts we obtained help from the Sheriff¹s department, the Department of
> > Wildlife (DOW) and the Forest Service. And by the use of signs, increased
> > patrols and community awareness, the number of hunters and hunter
> > incidents
> > was significantly reduced. However this came at the cost of extensive time
> > commitment on the parts of all concerned. It clearly is not a good
> > permanent
> > solution to the obvious safety concerns represented by people shooting
> > high-powered weapons in our neighborhood.
> >
> > This year we have drafted and submitted to DOW a petition to ban
> > hunting in
> > an eight square mile area of Sugarloaf, representing the most popular
> > hunting spots and the area where the serious safety concerns are the
> > greatest. If we can convince the DOW to take this action it will be almost
> > unprecedented in Colorado. They are naturally reluctant to do this as it
> > ³flies in the face² of their most important job, which is to encourage
> > hunting thereby bringing more money into the coffers.
> >
> > We will be traveling to Lamar, Colorado in September to argue the
> > merits of
> > this groundbreaking idea. In order to be successful in this endeavor we
> > will
> > have to ³pull out all the stops². We want to have signed petitions from
> > most
> > all of the local residents and anyone else who is concerned for the safety
> > of Sugarloaf people and pets. We have hired Tom Lamm, the brother of our
> > former governor Dick, to represent us at the meeting. He is a
> > brilliant and
> > articulate lawyer, and has a long history of dealing with the DOW and
> > hunting issues. He is also expensive. We have opened an account where you
> > can send donations to help defray the cost of this effort at Pearl Street
> > Wells Fargo bank. Please make your checks out to Sugar Loaf Citizen's for
> > Safety. Please be generous if you believe that our cause is important.
> >
> > Also attached to this letter is a petition for your signature. Please sign
> > it, have any one else you can find sign it, and return it to Art
> > Gneiser at
> > 1704 Old Townsite Rd. Boulder 80302. You can just put it in the mailbox at
> > the corner of Old Townsite and Sugarloaf (The one with the palm trees).
> >
> > This all needs to be done by the 20th of August so time is of the essence.
> > If you have any questions please call Art Gneiser at 303-494-4673.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cookie Shannon
> >
>

RE: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF

Greg,

While I understand your concerns, I have to point
out that there are real reasons to encourage
hunting in the area.

Without hunting, you have overpopulation of both
deer and elk. That leads to death by starvation,
and high population densities have been correlated
with Chronic Wasting Disease. We've been relatively
unnaffected by CWD here on Magnolia, but Sugarloaf
has quite a bit of it. Some say that's because they
have too many deer and elk (relative to the food
and predators).

Without hunting you create a boom in predators,
primarily cougar. Then as more cougar are able to
thin the herds more effectively, they get hungry.
This boom/bust in predator/prey populations is
one of the classic examples of chaos theory.
A cougar is much more likely to take your dog
than any hunter, in normal times. A hungry cougar
presents a danger to all of us.

We live in the forest. This is the habitat for
deer, elk & cougar. We've artificially decreased
the cougar population, so we need human hunters
to help thin the herds.

In other words, there are always unforeseen
consequences associated with sweeping changes
like limiting hunting. Consider what they
might be before persuing a "feel-good"
move, like limiting hunting.

John Carder

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Ching [mailto:greg.ching@mric.coop]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:11 AM
> To: PUMA News
> Cc: cookie@theshannons.net
> Subject: [puma-news] Fwd: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF
>
>
> FYI, here is a petition along Sugarloaf Road that may interest some
> folks along Magnolia. I know I worry where I take my dog on walks
> during hunting season....
>
> greg
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [info] BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF
> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:13:33 -0600
> From: Ruth Shannon <cookie@theshannons.net>
> Reply-To: Ruth Shannon <cookie@theshannons.net>
> Organization: theshannons
> To: Shannon, Cookie <cookie@theshannons.net>
> References: <BF154913.124A%art-nancy@earthlink.net>
> <opsuwqqdjtyigpt0@d71q4s51>
>
> ------- Forwarded message -------
> From: "Art and Nancy" <art-nancy@earthlink.net>
> To: cookie@theshannons.net
> Subject: BAN HUNTING IN SUGARLOAF
> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:00:18 -0600
>
> COOKIE - HERE IS INFORMATION ON OUR WORK TO BAN HUNTING IN THE SUGARLOAF
> AREA. ATTACKED IS A COPY OF THE PETITION. THANK YOU FOR SENDING IT OUT.
>
> ART GNEISER
>
> SUGARLOAF RESIDENTS
>
> By now you should have received this information by snail mail. Here is a
> backup from cyberspace -------
>
> For the past few years a group of local homeowners, led by Jillian Weems
> and
> Marcia Barber, have been trying to reduce and hopefully eliminate hunting
> in
> the most populated parts of the Sugarloaf area. Last fall, through our
> efforts we obtained help from the Sheriff¹s department, the Department of
> Wildlife (DOW) and the Forest Service. And by the use of signs, increased
> patrols and community awareness, the number of hunters and hunter
> incidents
> was significantly reduced. However this came at the cost of extensive time
> commitment on the parts of all concerned. It clearly is not a good
> permanent
> solution to the obvious safety concerns represented by people shooting
> high-powered weapons in our neighborhood.
>
> This year we have drafted and submitted to DOW a petition to ban
> hunting in
> an eight square mile area of Sugarloaf, representing the most popular
> hunting spots and the area where the serious safety concerns are the
> greatest. If we can convince the DOW to take this action it will be almost
> unprecedented in Colorado. They are naturally reluctant to do this as it
> ³flies in the face² of their most important job, which is to encourage
> hunting thereby bringing more money into the coffers.
>
> We will be traveling to Lamar, Colorado in September to argue the
> merits of
> this groundbreaking idea. In order to be successful in this endeavor we
> will
> have to ³pull out all the stops². We want to have signed petitions from
> most
> all of the local residents and anyone else who is concerned for the safety
> of Sugarloaf people and pets. We have hired Tom Lamm, the brother of our
> former governor Dick, to represent us at the meeting. He is a
> brilliant and
> articulate lawyer, and has a long history of dealing with the DOW and
> hunting issues. He is also expensive. We have opened an account where you
> can send donations to help defray the cost of this effort at Pearl Street
> Wells Fargo bank. Please make your checks out to Sugar Loaf Citizen's for
> Safety. Please be generous if you believe that our cause is important.
>
> Also attached to this letter is a petition for your signature. Please sign
> it, have any one else you can find sign it, and return it to Art
> Gneiser at
> 1704 Old Townsite Rd. Boulder 80302. You can just put it in the mailbox at
> the corner of Old Townsite and Sugarloaf (The one with the palm trees).
>
> This all needs to be done by the 20th of August so time is of the essence.
> If you have any questions please call Art Gneiser at 303-494-4673.
>
>
>
> --
> Cookie Shannon
>

[puma-news] free hot tub

Free hot tub, you haul away.

 

I have a large hot tub I would like to get rid of.  It is a fairly large tub, which can seat 6 + people.  It is in reasonable condition- the tub itself and all pipes are intact with no cracks.  It needs a new thermostat and a few other parts and the wooden skirt needs to be rebuilt.  I had a hot tub repairman up last year and he estimated $400 in repairs not including the skirt.  This size tub new is very expensive so I think it is a pretty good deal. 

I have a trailer that I could make available for hauling it, but with a bad back I'd prefer not to move it myself. 

Karl

1130 Pine Glade,  303-475-3731 shai5dove@aol.com

[puma-news] seeking rental

29 yr old female grad student seeking to rent a room or share apartment. I am
currenly addending Naropa University in my third year of the Wilderness
Therapy program.
Looking for someplace near hiking as I love to be outside as much as
possible. Want a home where social and solo time is balanced. I absolutely
love to host/participate in dinner parties, drink red wine or sip tea and
chat/laugh/converse/dance. At the same time I really appreciate my
contemplative solo space.
Ideally I am looking to share with other women. I would love a home space
with animals (although I don't have any myself but I appreciate their presence
a lot). Would be wonderful if horses were nearby as I have a deep love and
respect for them (would be great if I could muck in exchange for some part of
the rent, but okay if this isn't the case).
I am looking to move in either august or september (have a temporary place
lined up for the month of august and am free to leave when I find the home I
am seeking). My price range is anywhere under 475$. the lower the better.
Please let me know if this sounds like we might be a good match.
Thank you.
My name is Jody. Please call me at 303.746.3865 or e-mail me at
jhicks@naropa.net. (Phone is better).
please note that I work at a youth program in the backcountry and will be in
the woods from aug 9th to the 24th therefore unable to receive calls or e-mail.
---
Naropa University - an adventure in mind, body, and spirit.
http://www.naropa.edu

Re: [puma-news] yard work

Hello all,

My friend is the person who helps the Lost Boys of Sudan in Boulder.

She said they would come up for yard work.

I am going to hire them and if anyone else needs work done you can email me at colleen@womensquest.com

Thanks
Colleen




On 8/2/05 9:42 PM, "Mvgerard@aol.com" <Mvgerard@aol.com> wrote:

Speaking of yard work.  I have a small field, no rocks out front that should be mowed.  Anyone interested in mowing and giving me an estimate?  303 642 0648   Thanks. Marielle

--
Colleen Cannon
Women's Quest
303.545.9295
colleen@womensquest.com
www.womensquest.com

Re: [puma-news] yard work

Speaking of yard work.  I have a small field, no rocks out front that should be mowed.  Anyone interested in mowing and giving me an estimate?  303 642 0648   Thanks. Marielle

[puma-news] SHARING GOOD LOCAL SERVICES

We have had good experiences with two local services that might be of
interest to others:

1. Dirty Bird Window Cleaners: Jay Edelmann, phone: 303-249-9465

In addition to cleaning those hard to reach windows and skylights, Jay
loves to climb roofs for cleaning out gutters (important for fire
mitigation), minor roof repair, etc. Very nice fellow and very
reasonable too!

2. High Country Rubbish Removal: 303-642-0303

At only $18 a month...their service is an excellent deal...AND they take
most recyclables at no additional cost!!

Norman
Aspen Meadow

[puma-news] FREE COMPUTER GIVEAWAY

I have an old but well maintained 386 system with color monitor &
Okidata laser printer and stand, looking for a good home. Great for
word processing and/or kid play! And, you can't beat the price...FREE!!

Norman

Re: [puma-news] fire mitigation

Terry Greenberg is heading up the project. She is out of town for
several more days, but you can reach her at greenbet@spot.colorado.edu
Dan

lora taylor wrote:

> I'm new to the diversity of what you offer our community. I have
> heard you applied for a grant for fire mitigation work. Is any of
> that money still available? I have a very thickly grown forest on my
> land, in need of major work. Let me know how to apply to your grant.
> Thanks,
> Lora

[puma-news] fire mitigation

I'm new to the diversity of what you offer our community.  I have heard you applied for a grant for fire mitigation work.  Is any of that money still available?  I have a very thickly grown forest on my land, in need of major work.  Let me know how to apply to your grant. 

Thanks,

 Lora

[puma-news] yard work

Is there anyone out there willing to do some yard work? It is fairly light work: weed-wack grass around house, lop & remove (or possibly just pile) dead juniper branches. Easy money!

 

Vivian

 

 

[puma-news] FW: [nature-net] Boulder County Parks and Open Space programs in August

-----Original Message-----
From: nature-net@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nature-net@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Price, Deborah
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:33 AM
To: Nature Net (E-mail)
Subject: [nature-net] Boulder County Parks and Open Space programs in August

Escape the Heat with Cool Boulder County Programs

Area residents looking for something to do outdoors can escape to
the foothills of Boulder County. August programs are offered during the
cooler morning or evening hours of the day.
The following programs are offered free and are open to all ages
unless otherwise noted. No reservations are required. Participants should
be prepared for changing weather and temperatures. Please leave pets at
home. Call (303) 441-3899 or visit www.co.boulder.co.us/openspace
<http://www.co.boulder.co.us/openspace> for additional information and
directions to parks.
Please pass this information on to family or friends who may be
interested.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Boulder County Sunset Hikes
Discover your Boulder County parks! Back by popular demand, Boulder County
Parks and Open Space is offering weekly sunset hikes this summer. These
slow-paced hikes cover an array of topics --volunteer naturalists will
interpret each park's history, geology, ecosystems, wildlife, and plants.
All sunset walks begin at 6:30pm and conclude at sunset. Sunset hikes are
suitable for all ages; children must be accompanied by an adult.
Participants should wear comfortable walking/hiking shoes. Please bring
water, binoculars, and bird, wildlife or wildflower field guides if you
wish.

Thursday, August 4 Caribou Ranch Open Space
Friday, August 12 Heil Valley Ranch Open Space
Monday, August 15 Walker Ranch Open Space (meet at Meyers
Homestead
Trailhead)
Tuesday, August 23 Bald Mountain Scenic Area
Wednesday, August 31 Caribou Ranch Open Space

For more information or directions to a park, contact the Boulder County
Parks and Open Space Department at (303) 441-3899.

The Prairie Dog Days of Summer
Saturday, August 13; 10 am to Noon
Heil Valley Ranch; north of Boulder on Hwy 36, west on Lefthand Canyon Dr.
to Geer Canyon Dr., follow signs to group picnic shelter Join volunteer
naturalist Sally Bell and others on a hike to one of the highest elevation
black-tailed prairie dog towns in Boulder County. Learn about prairie dog
ecology, behavior, habitat needs, and why this critter is so important in
prairie grassland ecosystems. Participants should wear closed-toe
walking/hiking shoes and bring drinking water and sunscreen. This moderate
hike is about 1.5 miles roundtrip.

Night Hike at Walker Ranch
Wednesday, August 17; 8 to 10 pm
Walker Ranch; approximately 7.5 miles west of Boulder on Flagstaff Road;
meet at the Meyers Homestead Trailhead
Join Boulder County Parks and Open Space volunteer naturalists for an
evening of exploring Walker Ranch under cover of darkness. We'll hike about
two miles roundtrip, on a moderate trail, enjoying the starlight and the
rising and nearly-full moon, listening for night sounds, and learning about
some of the nocturnal habits of the critters that live here. Bring water,
closed-toe hiking shoes/boots, suitable clothing for the weather, and your
night vision.

Through Wild Eyes at Caribou Ranch
Saturday, August 20; 10 am to Noon
Caribou Ranch Open Space; go north approximately 1.9 miles on Highway 72
from the Nederland traffic circle to County Road 126 (just past mile marker
34), then west on 126 approximately 1.2 miles to Caribou Ranch trailhead and
parking
Join volunteer naturalist Barbara Werner for an easy 2-mile hike at this
beautiful new open space property and learn about some of the animal
residents and the ecosystems they depend upon. Afterwards, participants are
free to continue exploring the trails, picnic overlooking the beaver ponds,
or return to the trailhead.

The Nature of Bummer's Rock
Saturday, August 27; 10 am to Noon
Betasso Preserve; Boulder Canyon (Hwy 119) west from Boulder to Sugarloaf
Road, turn right on Betasso Drive, and meet at the Bummer's Rock Trailhead,
just past the main entrance to the park
Join volunteer naturalists for a glimpse of a little-visited corner of
Betasso Preserve. From a lofty perch overlooking Boulder Canyon, you'll
stand on some of the oldest rock in Boulder County and learn a little about
the geologic story behind the dramatic scenery. We will also observe and
talk about the plants, flowers, and wildlife that call this ponderosa pine
ecosystem home. The trail to Bummer's Rock is about ¾ mile round trip, and
steep in a couple of places. Please wear closed-toe hiking shoes or boots,
and bring water and sunscreen.

Seniors Hike at Heil Valley Ranch Open Space
Thursday, August 25; 10 am to Noon
Heil Valley Ranch; north of Boulder on Hwy 36, west on Lefthand Canyon Dr.
to Geer Canyon Dr., follow signs to group picnic shelter
This seniors-only hike will travel the 1-mile Lichen Loop to learn about the
wildlife at this beautiful foothills park, including the local elk herd.
We'll also talk about current Boulder County projects at Heil Valley Ranch.

======================================================

Boulder County Nature Association's Nature Network
http://www.bcna.org

To Post a message, send it to: nature-net@yahoogroups.com
To Unsubscribe, send a message to: nature-net-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
To Subscribe, send a message to: nature-net-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Message Archives: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/nature-net

Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed do not necessarily represent
BCNA's position. BCNA reserves the right to reject any message we feel is
inappropriate.

======================================================

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nature-net/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
nature-net-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[puma-news] Yellow jackets

Anybody know what to do about a yellow jacket nest, I've discovered on my
deck. One sting so far and I'd prefer no more. Advice and help
appreciated.
Richard Sann

[puma-news] [Fwd: Tossing weeds in the road?]

-------- Original Message --------

Subject:	Tossing weeds in the road?
Date:	Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:58:15 -0600

I was driving down Aspen Meadow today and spotted a fresh bunch of tall  musk thistles (weeds) that had been pulled and tossed in the road across  from Meadowland Court.  I thought someone must be working on this and planning to pick them up.  Several hours later I passed by and saw how traffic had not only crushed  the plants but also assisted them in broadcasting countless seeds down  the road and on to adjacent properties.  While I am not the local plant/weed expert (I defer to Jennifer  Stewart)...I have to question the road tossing approach to weed  mitigation (seen from time to time each year).  Jennifer can correct me  on this...but unless the plants are very young (have not developed their  seed heads)...this is not the way to deal with them.  Just a thought from an old weed pulling guy...  Thanks! Norman  

[puma-news] Can You Hem A Dress?

Hello

Anyone out there know how to hem a dress? If so, please call Sara at
303-443-1409 or 303-335-6615. We will pay for this. It needs to be done
by August 4th.

Terry for Sara

[puma-news] Need for use of Car

Dear PUMA friends,

I've been working in Californaa. I will be on Magnolia Rd from July 29
into August, for a few weeks, without a car.

It would be helpful to borrow a car for a day or two at a time to drive in
Boulder and/back.

I have a good driving record, and insurance.

If you could help out or have any ideas, I would appreciate.

Reply to this e-mail or call me at: 720-938-2625 or 510-978-4454

Thanks, Bob

[puma-news] missing motor cover

Hi- Did anyone find a metal plate that would cover the side of a motorcycle engine
laying along Magnolia or Lazy Z? I was bringing home my bike from the shop on Tuesday
PM only to discover yesterday that the shop had not tightened the covers and it
came off along the way. If you did, please drop me a line. Thanks!

Margot Rode
303-642-7326

[puma-news] Yellow sweet clover

This member of the Fabaceae, or pea, family, is the scraggley plant
that is now blooming along Magnolia Road. It is alien, but is greatly
appreciated by bees. It has a white flowered version as well, Melilotus
alba, which mingles with Melilotus officinale, the yellow flowered
plant. So far, it seems to be restricting its location to roadside.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Fire ban in Boulder County

A fire ban went into effect today at noon for us in Boulder County.

http://www.co.boulder.co.us/newsroom/templates/?a=158&z=7

- Jim

[puma-news] Wild Hollyhock

Here is the wild version of those wonderful plants that grew all around
small towns when we (you know who I mean) were kids. Find these in wet
places with the Richardson's geranium.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Richardson's geranium

Look for this gem in wet places.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Nodding Onion

These are in various stages of bloom right now, in meadows and in the
woods, singly and in groups. They resemble pearls.

Onions used to be lilies, but they struck out on their own and are now
Alliaceae. However, an onion by any name is still an onion.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Bergamot

This member of the Lamiaceae, or mint, family, looks good from a
distance, but a closer look reveals flowers that develop "bedhead" to an
astonishing degree. Maybe it's the millions of bees that carouse in
their midst. These are now in full bloom around our area.
Monarda is also called "horsemint," and "beebalm." I like the name
"bergamot" pronounced by Cherie as "bergameaux," or something like
that. Being a mint, it is no relation to the citrus used to flavor Earl
Grey tea. Can you imagine a mint-flavored orange?

Best,
J

[puma-news] PUMA POTLUCK JULY 16

Reminder of the annual Summer PUMA Potluck, rain or shine:
Saturday, JULY 16 4-8 PM AT Scott Reuman's 7425 Magnolia Rd.
Come, bring food, and friends.

PS If I got any info incorrect, please correct it!

Bonnie Sundance
delight@denver.net
Caring for the Earth, all beings and working for Peace & Justice

RE: [puma-news] Mariposa lily

After 6 years in Gold Hill, we moved to Lazy Z last spring. Wow! am I
excited to have this way to talk about important things, like the flowers we
all so love.

Thanks,

Jennifer Rudin
jrudin@earthlink.net

>From: Jennifer and Dan <larkspur@magnoliaroad.net>
>Reply-To: Jennifer and Dan <larkspur@magnoliaroad.net>
>To: puma-news <puma-news@puma-net.org>
>Subject: [puma-news] Mariposa lily
>Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:17:44 -0600
>
>Unfolding now in meadows around Magnolia, this beautiful flower is abundant
>in some years, scarce in others. It is not really a lily; its family is
>Calochortaceae. Ours are white, but they may be other colors in other
>parts of the country. I have also attached a pale lavender one I saw in
>Utah.
>
>Best,
>J
><< Calochortus_gunnisonii25x20PUMA.JPG >>
><< UtahMariposa25x20.JPG >>

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

[puma-news] Harebell

Our campanulas are beginning to bloom.

Campanulaceae includes lobelias, which are bilaterally symmetrical.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Mariposa lily

Unfolding now in meadows around Magnolia, this beautiful flower is
abundant in some years, scarce in others. It is not really a lily; its
family is Calochortaceae. Ours are white, but they may be other colors
in other parts of the country. I have also attached a pale lavender one
I saw in Utah.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Parry primrose

Here's one of the good reasons to take a hike into higher country as
soon as possible!

Best,
J

[puma-news] Three photos

I felt it would be best to lump these together --- I hope I haven't
crashed anyone's computer!

Giant angelica (Angelica ampla) and Cow parsnip (Heracleum spondylium)
can be seen in the wet meadow on 68 before Pine Glade. Fern-leaved
lovage (Ligusticul tenuifolium) can be seen along the road among the
aspens a little bit down Twin Sisters..

The little yellow-flowered mountain parsely is also part of this family.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Water hemlock

This beautiful and deadly member (Cicuta douglasii) of the carrot family
(Apiaceae) is present in our area in moist to wet places. I have seen
it along 68 by Cumberland Gap, in wet areas on Twin Sisters, and on 68
by Jimmy Keith's. It is most likely present in other places as well.
I am telling you this so that you will keep children and animals away
from this plant. Actually, animals probably won't eat it unless there's
nothing else, but it can also have an irritating affect on skin if they
are grazing near it. It should not be handled with bare hands.

Please don't go on a campaign to eradicate it unless you consult with
the County or experts at CSU. It is a native.

Other members of this family lives here as well. If you have any
questions, please call me. 303-442-7460

Best,
J

[puma-news] Anyone Having an Event?

Hi All

OK. This is a win-win possibility. I had paid a non-refundable deposit to
Spice of Life of over $2,000 for my daughter's wedding in late August. My
daughter called off the wedding and relationship. Oh, well. Good for
her. Bad financially for me.

Spice of Life said that if anyone orders a catering job or event at Spice
of Life, and says, "Terry Greenberg referrred me to you" they will subtract
whatever that catering job or event costs from the deposit and I will get
that amount reimbursed.

So check them out and if you are comparing estimates for catering or event
and it is within 20% of Spice of Life--I will pay the difference so that I
could get some (80%) money back. Call Spice of Life at 303-444-3452 and me
at 303-443-1409.

The food is really fantastic. We sampled a meal and it was so good--but
not good enough to have the wedding.

Thanks.

Terry Greenberg

[puma-news] Rental

Dear Puma Friends,
I am seeking a woman house mate or 2 women to share two rooms in
my home, for $600 plus extra for phone, utilities, Internet. It is located
just off Magnolia Road near mile marker 6.

Available in July or August.

If you know of someone, they can see my ad on
Craigslist-Denver/Boulder-Rooms to Share under 9 July 05....:
http://denver.craigslist.org/roo/

Thanks,
Bonnie Sundance

Bonnie Sundance
delight@denver.net
Caring for the Earth, all beings and working for Peace & Justice

[puma-news] Gilpin plagiarism

Dear Friends,
Having just had a near disaster, I am anxious to let everyone know that
Gilpin County has "Pine Glade Drive." This can slow the HCFD
considerably. When calling 911, it is imperative that they are told we
are Pine Glade off of Magnolia Road in Boulder County, or the fire truck
may end up elsewhere.
All is well now, but just minutes before we were to leave for a short
trip, our camper caught fire. We put it out ourselves within minutes,
but HCFD arrived anyway, checked things out for us, and told us about
the imposter Pine Glade.
Thanks to all the fellows who left hot coffee and Saturday chores to
come and help us out!

Best to all,
Jennifer and Dan

[puma-news] Ninebark

This shrub is not so common as Ceanothus fendleri or Purschia
tridentata, but it is blooming now in the woods.

Best,
J

[puma-news] [Fwd: Garden Tour & Wildflower Conference]

For all you folks looking for light at the end of the noxious weed
tunnel....

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Garden Tour & Wildflower Conference
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:53:49 EDT
From: TheaSerene@cs.com
To: serene@karplus.com

Gardeners and the Public
are
Invited To Participate
in the
19th Annual Tour of Mountain Gardens
and
Mountain Wildflower Conference
on
Saturday and Sunday
July 9 & 10

First Columbine Garden Club Presents
Fourth Mountain Wildflower Conference
July 9, Saturday
10am - 4pm
Community Presbyterian Church in Nederland
(Hwy 72 north of traffic circle in Nederland)
Tuition $35
Registration Begins 9:30am

Panayoti Kelaidis, Outreach Director for Denver Botanic Garden, will be
the keynote speaker. Kelaidis is world famous for his work researching,
collecting and propagating plants from high altitudes around the globe.
He was honored by the designation of an ice plant as Delosperma
Kelaidis- Mesa Verde. Colorado Wildflowers will be his topic of the day.

Dr. Joyce Gellhorn will be speaking about life in the alpine tundra. Her
book /Song Of The Alpine/ is the definitive text on plants, animals and
birds above treeline.

Carole Cardon, noted Colorado photographer, will offer tips on improving
wildflower photos. Some of her images will be on display for the day.

Dr. Robert Cohen, noted ornithologist, will give an overview of his
work. Dr. Cohen's 31-year study of tree and violet green swallows is
supported by over 300 nesting boxes in the high country. A beautiful
slide show of the swallows will help attendees better understand the
life cycles of these graceful avian visitors. It is not just San Juan
Capistrano that regularly welcomes the return of the swallows.

The certification process for becoming a Backyard Wildlife Habitat will
be explained by a representative of the National Wildlife Federation.
Application forms will be available. The youth group of the Presbyterian
Church is working on certifying the Church property this year.

The day will conclude with an optional visit to the Blue On Blue Gardens
at Huckleberry House. Certified as a Backyard Wildlife Habitat in 2004,
Blue On Blue is a Colorado State University Plant Select Demonstration
Garden.

19th Annual Mountain Garden Tour
July 10, Sunday
10am - 5pm
Tickets $10 at Huckleberry House
(Located on Hwy 72, exactly 3 miles west of Hwy 119 near Nederland.
Violet tri-color house west of lake on southwest intersection at Beaver
Creek Rd.)

Gardeners will be in their gardens all day during the tour.

For further information, please call Violet Aandres at 303-642-3356.

Serene Karplus
Executive Director
Nederland Area Chamber of Commerce
www.nederlandchamber.org
serene@karplus.com
303-545-2126

[puma-news] weed to be whacked

I know you're out there, oh weed whacker, and I know you live to whack
weeds. Little else could make your engine tremble with such excitement,
your cord whip so endlessly around. But I know not where you are. In
transition, is what I have heard, but has the transit taken place? Are
there weeds being whacked somewhere? Is it possible that your possessor
could inform me of when and perhaps where I might obtain you, oh little
whirling dervish, so that my weeds could have their desire to remain
unwhacked whacked? Where for art thou, oh weed whacker. How many weeds
could a weed whacker whack if a weed whacker could...

Scott
******************************
Scott Campbell Reuman
Artist/Writer
Conundrum Designs, Inc.
Nederland, CO
http://www.conundrumdesigns.com
scottreuman@conundrumdesigns.com

[puma-news] plateau herbicide

So far response has been positive. Most probable action will be that
PUMA will purchase some and distribute it to members for half cost. We
still haven't found clear mixing instructions!

Best,
J

P.S. Our internet has been erratic, so excuse us if we don't respond
immediately. Call us if it's urgent! 303-442-7460

Re: [puma-news] Plateau herbicide

I would be very interested in going in on this. Bay 303-883-3312- 1703 twin sisters

----- Original Message -----

From: Don Van Wie

To: David.Bahr@colorado.edu ; puma-news@puma-net.org

Cc: Jennifer and Dan

Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:14 PM

Subject: RE: [puma-news] Plateau herbicide

I agree with David - if its 4 oz to the acre, the minimum buy is 8 acres.  If not through PUMA, then maybe through one of us.  You know, put it up in 1 oz baggies and sell it on the corner of Magnolia and 68J for 20 bucks a pop. 

 

Don Van Wie
OneRain, Inc.
The Rainfall Company
1531 Skyway Drive, Suite D
Longmont, CO  80504-6270

Tel:   (303) 258-0170
Ofc:  (303) 774-2033

Web: www.onerain.com

---

From: owner-puma-news@www.puma-net.org on behalf of David.Bahr@colorado.edu
Sent: Wed 6/29/2005 6:59 AM
To: puma-news@puma-net.org
Cc: Jennifer and Dan
Subject: Re: [puma-news] Plateau herbicide

Hi Jennifer,

At 4 ounces per acre, I couldn't even come close to using a quart.  I suspect
most of us only have small parts of our acreage affected by cheat grass.  So
perhaps puma could make the initial investment and then request a minimum
donation (say $20) for its use.  Puma would make a little money that could be
used for other projects, and the rest of us would save money.  (And the cheat
grass would be gone.)  Win win.

Dave

_____________________________________________

Quoting Jennifer and Dan <larkspur@magnoliaroad.net>:

> Dear friends,
> Plateau can be ordered online from Prairie Source (Prairiesource.com).
> Cost:
> 1 gallon  $340
> 1 Quart  $125
>
> This is the first source I have checked out, but it gives us an idea
> what to expect.  Pricey, huh?
>
> "According to university tests, cheatgrass can be sprayed in the spring,
> but better control is achievable in the late summer and early fall.
> ---uses four ounces of product per acre---"  Shane Novacek   PRIMEDIA
> Business Magazines & Media
>
> One ( me?) assumes that it gets mixed with water.
>
> Should PUMA buy some for all of us?  Or should we go it alone?
> Discussion open.
>
> Your opinions, please --- as a first step.
>
>
> Best,
> J
>
>
>
>
>

[puma-news] Penstemon virens

This is the small blue-flowered penstemon that is blooming in woods
right now.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Penstemon virgatus

This is the tall penstemon that is beginning to bloom up here.

I previously lumped with this the penstemon that blooms along Magnolia
up to about half-wway, but 'tain't so. That one is P. secunifloris. It
has a fuzzy staminode. Silly me.

Best,
J

[puma-news] hardwood for sale

Neighbors,
Still have 2 cords of dried, split hardwood elm for $200 per cord to
deliver today (July 4).
Dan
303-442-7460

[puma-news] Bitterbrush

Finishing up now, this member of the Rosaceae can be seen in the woods.
It's our low growing shrub with yellow flowers. Beginning to bloom now
is Ceanothus fendleri, which is a low growing shrub with white flowers.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Wild Grape

This native plant,Vitis riparia, is growing along with the poison ivy on
the wide right hand pull-out on Lower Magnolia. Its family, Vitaceae,
includes Virginia creeper, which is an alien ornamental common around
Boulder.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Hardwood Sale

Neighbors,
I have 2 cords of hardwood (elm) for sale to deliver today or tomorrow
(July 3,4) for $200 per cord.
First come first serve!
Dan
303-442-7460

[puma-news] Houndstongue

This invasive plant is truly noxious. It makes horrid burrs and is
toxic to livestock. Fortunately, it is easy to get rid of. Dig it up
and dispose of it.
If you have time and energy, you can look for next year's plants, which
are basal rosettes this year. Every one you dig up will be one less to
deal with next summer.

Best,
J

[puma-news] Native thistles

These thistles belong here. They are enjoyed by insects and some hardy
critters that can deal with prickles.

Unfortunately, the biological control introduced for musk thistle also
attacks wavy leaf (circium undulatum) thistle. If you break open the
base of a flower, you will find the grubs eating the seeds.

Best,
J

[puma-news] noxious thistles

Look around and you will see these plants. These are our most common
invasive thistles up here, not to be confused with native thistles
(separate email). Musk thistle is also called nodding thistle. Canada
thistle has small flowerheads, lavender, pink, or white.

Canada thistle is a perennial! This means that pulling or digging will
only encourage it, as such action breaks the roots into small pieces
which go on to become even MORE thistles. We recommend cutting, to
prevent seed formation. Bag all flower and seed heads.

Musk thistle is an annual, so pull, dig, stomp, swear --- and bag all
flower/seed heads.

If you want to spray, Curtail or Redeem are good choices; I'm not sure
whether Puma has any left --- check with Dan.

Puma has backpack sprayers, a weed whacker, and a mower with a bag on
it. They live at Terry's house, and there should be a sign-out sheet
for each. They are kept very busy!

Best,
J

[puma-news] Allium geyeri

This lovely wild onion is just getting started. It does not bend at the
top of the stem below the flowers, as does Allium cernuum. Nodding
onion blooms later.
Onions have moved from the Lily family to Alliaceae.

Best,
J

[puma-news] roto-tiller

Hi,

Is there anyone in the Magnolia area that has a roto-tiller that they
would be willing to loan or rent out to a neighbor (us) for a day or
two? Our little Mantis tiller isn't working right now, and its a lot of
trouble to go down to town to rent one for a few hours. We would sure
appreciate it.

George

[puma-news] puma weed whacker

To whoever has the weed whacker:
Joy Om (303-258-0717) had signed up to use it this Saturday AM (she is
having someone over to work on her place). Could you please call her and
arrange to bring it to her for an hour or so?

RE: [puma-news] Sleeping Bat

Several years ago, I was replacing a screen in a SW facing window on the
third floor. I happened to stick my head out a bit, and noticed a bat
between the copper rain gutter and the house (about a foot from me). He gave
me a "don't bother me" look, so I didn't, but it great to see the face up
close. They are busy little beavers from twilight until sunrise. I cheer
them on.

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Parmita Pushman [mailto:parmita@whiteswanmusic.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 11:03 AM
> To: 'Greg Ching'; editor@mric.coop; 'PUMA News'
> Subject: RE: [puma-news] Sleeping Bat
>
>
> I had one of these sweet little bats fly into my house last year
> and it was
> a delicate rescue operation. They are really a great miracle of nature!
>
> Parmita Pushman
> White Swan Music
> 303 527 0770 ext 104
> parmita@whiteswanmusic.com
> fax 303 527 0771
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-puma-news@www.puma-net.org
> [mailto:owner-puma-news@www.puma-net.org] On Behalf Of Greg Ching
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:11 AM
> To: editor@mric.coop; PUMA News
> Subject: [puma-news] Sleeping Bat
>
> Even after 5 years of installing a bat house on supposedly a sunny
> morning spot, I've never spotted a bat using it. Early this morning,
> Debbie spotted a bat sleeping on our tree near the bedroom...right out
> in the open at eye level! And it was on the northwest side of the tree
> which wasn't where we would have expected it. The head is pointed
> downward in these two photos.
>
> Bats are great for killing mosquitoes if you wonder why encourage them.
>
> greg
>
>
>

[puma-news] FW: [nature-net] July Programs with Boulder County Parks and Open Space

-----Original Message-----
From: nature-net@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nature-net@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Price, Deborah
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:53 PM
To: Nature Net (E-mail)
Subject: [nature-net] July Programs with Boulder County Parks and Open
Space

Parks and Open Space Programs for July 2005

The Boulder County Parks and Open Space Department will offer the following
natural and cultural history programs in July 2005. All programs are free
to the public. Please pass this information on to friends and family who
may be interested.

All ages are welcome unless noted differently. However, no pets are
permitted to join programs. Participants should be prepared for hot
temperatures and thunder showers on any outdoor hike. Call (303) 441-3899
or visit www.co.boulder.co.us/openspace for additional information and
directions to parks.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Boulder County Sunset Hikes
Discover your Boulder County parks! Back by popular demand, Boulder County
Parks and Open Space is offering weekly sunset hikes this summer. These
slow-paced hikes cover an array of topics --volunteer naturalists will
interpret each park's history, geology, ecosystems, wildlife, and plants.
All sunset walks begin at 6:30pm and conclude at sunset. No reservations are
needed. Sunset hikes are suitable for all ages; children must be accompanied
by an adult and no pets are permitted. Participants should wear comfortable
walking/hiking shoes. Please bring water, binoculars, and bird, wildlife or
wildflower field guides if you wish. Most importantly, bring your family and
friends to enjoy an evening exploring your local parks.

Friday, July 8 Caribou Ranch Open Space
Monday, July 11 Walker Ranch Open Space (meet at Meyers Homestead
Trailhead)
Tuesday, July 19 Carolyn Holmberg Preserve at Rock Creek Farm (meet at
Stearns
Lake Trailhead)
Wednesday, July 27 Betasso Preserve

For more information or directions to a park, contact the Boulder County
Parks and Open Space Department at (303) 441-3899.

Rattlesnake!
Wednesday, July 6; 6:30pm to 8:30pm
Heil Valley Ranch; north of Boulder on Hwy 36, west on Lefthand Canyon Dr.
to Geer Canyon Dr., follow signs to the group picnic shelter
Enjoy a moderate 1-mile evening hike at Heil Valley Ranch and learn about
this fascinating reptile, which can be found in the plains and foothills of
Boulder County. Volunteer naturalists will lead this hike and share
information about the western rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis), including
habitat, ecology, behavior, and how to be safe in rattlesnake country. We
will also visit a prairie dog town, one of the snake's preferred habitats.
Participants should bring water and wear closed-toe hiking shoes/boots.

I Sit Listening to the Wind: A Women's Encounter Within Herself and Nature
Saturday, July 9; 9:00am to 11:30am
Meeting location will be given to registered participants
Join volunteer naturalist Louise Alderson for a walk in nature. Using
passages from the book I Sit Listening to the Wind by Judith Duerk, you'll
experience the rhythm of nature with personal reflection and growth.
Participants should wear closed-toe walking/hiking shoes, bring drinking
water, and be prepared for a moderately strenuous 1-mile hike. For women of
all ages; register by calling (303) 441-3899 by Thursday, July 7.

Fish Hawks of Boulder County
Sunday, July 10; 9:00am to 10:30am
Lagerman Reservoir Open Space; located northeast of Boulder between North
63rd and North 75th Streets; take Prospect Road east from 63rd Street, or
Pike Road west from 75th Street to the reservoir
What hawk-like bird has a white head, eats fish, spends the summer and nests
in Boulder County, and is not a bald eagle? The answer could only be osprey.
Join volunteer naturalists to learn about and, hopefully, observe this
remarkable bird of prey. Ospreys, sometimes called "fish hawks," live almost
exclusively on fish, and are amazing to watch as they plummet from the skies
talon-first into shallow ponds and reservoirs, emerging dripping wet
clutching their wriggling prey. An osprey pair has nested on a platform at
Lagerman Reservoir in Boulder County for ten years and, with a little luck,
we may see adults and young looking for food and trying out young wings. We
will also keep our eyes out for other birds frequenting the area. Bring
water, sunscreen, a bird field guide, and binoculars if you have them.

Wildflowers of Caribou Ranch
Saturday, July 16; 10:00am to 12:30pm
Caribou Ranch Open Space; go north approximately 1.9 miles on Highway 72
from the Nederland traffic circle to County Road 126 (just past mile marker
34), then west on 126 approximately 1.2 miles to Caribou Ranch trailhead and
parking
Escape the summer heat and enjoy the wildflowers of Caribou Ranch, one of
our newest open space properties. We will hike about three easy miles
through the beautiful montane forests and meadows of Caribou Ranch,
identifying and learning about the wildflowers as we go. Participants should
wear comfortable closed-toe walking/hiking shoes and bring a rain poncho,
snack, and drinking water.

Full Moon Hike at Heil Valley Ranch
Thursday, July 21; 8:30pm to 10:30pm
Heil Valley Ranch; north of Boulder on Hwy 36, west on Lefthand Canyon Dr.
to Geer Canyon Dr., follow signs to group picnic shelter
Join Boulder County Parks and Open Space volunteer naturalists for an
evening of exploring Heil Valley Ranch under cover of darkness. We'll hike
about two miles roundtrip, on a moderate
trail, enjoying the starlight and the full moon, listening for night sounds,
and learning about some of the nocturnal habits of the critters that live
here. Bring water, closed-toe hiking shoes/boots, suitable clothing for the
weather, and your night vision.

A Hands-on Look at Nature
Saturday, July 23; 10:00am to Noon
Meeting location will be given to registered participants
Volunteer naturalists Pam Payne, Roy Whitacre and Bruce Rosenthal will share
a variety of crafts with children to help them explore and learn about
nature. This foothills park provides a beautiful backdrop for this fun
program, and families are encouraged to picnic and hike the trails after the
program. This creative workshop is for families with children ages 5-8 years
old. Please wear closed-toe shoes and a hat, and bring water and sunscreen.
Register by calling (303) 441-3899 by Thursday, July 21.

The Nature of Caribou Ranch
Sunday, July 24: 10:00am to Noon
Caribou Ranch Open Space; go north approximately 1.9 miles on Highway 72
from the Nederland traffic circle to County Road 126 (just past mile marker
34), then west on 126 approximately 1.2 miles to Caribou Ranch trailhead and
parking
Explore the new Caribou Ranch Open Space with volunteer naturalists Barbara
Werner and Marty Dick as we hike approximately 2 miles along the moderate De
Londe trail. Come ready to investigate the wildflowers, trees, birds and
evidence of wildlife on this unique property. Bring a picnic lunch to enjoy
after the hike if you wish. You'll also need good closed-toe hiking
boots/shoes for rocky terrain, water, sun protection and clothes for
changing mountain weather conditions.

Senior Hike at Caribou Ranch Open Space
Thursday, July 28; 10 am to Noon
Caribou Ranch Open Space; go north approximately 1.9 miles on Highway 72
from the Nederland traffic circle to County Road 126 (just past mile marker
34), then west on 126 approximately 1.2 miles to Caribou Ranch trailhead and
parking
Senior citizens are invited to explore this new open space property and
learn about the history, wildlife, and current resource management projects
at Caribou Ranch. No registration is necessary. For more information, call
303-441-3899.

Walker Ranch Summer Days
Come up to the Walker Ranch Homestead to enjoy the lazy days of summer
(located 7 miles west of Boulder on Flagstaff Rd.). You are welcome to join
any or all of these public programs --bring your family and friends to learn
more about life on a ranch over 100 years ago!

Walker Ranch Homestead Tour
Thursday, July 14; 6:30pm to 8:00pm
Cultural history interpreter Alan Gardner will lead tours of the historic
Walker Ranch Homestead. He'll explain why James and Phoebe Walker settled
in the Boulder foothills, and how their family prospered there for nearly 60
years. You'll tour several of the historic buildings and learn more about
the family's large livestock barn, root cellar, blacksmith shop and log
house.

Leisure Time in the 1880s
Sunday, July 31; 10:00am to 2:00pm
Living on a ranch 100 years ago meant a lot of hard work. But there were
also times when families could relax, play games, and just enjoy each
other's company. Come up to the Walker Ranch Homestead to join the fun and
learn what it was like to relax and enjoy leisure pastimes back in the
1880s.

======================================================

Boulder County Nature Association's Nature Network
http://www.bcna.org

To Post a message, send it to: nature-net@yahoogroups.com
To Unsubscribe, send a message to: nature-net-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
To Subscribe, send a message to: nature-net-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Message Archives: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/nature-net

Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed do not necessarily represent
BCNA's position. BCNA reserves the right to reject any message we feel is
inappropriate.

======================================================

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nature-net/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
nature-net-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [puma-news] Sleeping Bat

I had one of these sweet little bats fly into my house last year and it was
a delicate rescue operation. They are really a great miracle of nature!

Parmita Pushman
White Swan Music
303 527 0770 ext 104
parmita@whiteswanmusic.com
fax 303 527 0771


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-puma-news@www.puma-net.org
[mailto:owner-puma-news@www.puma-net.org] On Behalf Of Greg Ching
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:11 AM
To: editor@mric.coop; PUMA News
Subject: [puma-news] Sleeping Bat

Even after 5 years of installing a bat house on supposedly a sunny
morning spot, I've never spotted a bat using it. Early this morning,
Debbie spotted a bat sleeping on our tree near the bedroom...right out
in the open at eye level! And it was on the northwest side of the tree
which wasn't where we would have expected it. The head is pointed
downward in these two photos.

Bats are great for killing mosquitoes if you wonder why encourage them.

greg

Re: [puma-news] glow bugs

Hi Scott,

 

Lee and I may have seen something similar near Lake City, Colorado (San Juan's) on 4th of July weekend in 1999.  We thought we were seeing greenish LEDs glowing in the road embankment.  Closer inspection showed that they were larvae, and the back third of each creature was glowing.  I remember them being larger than the bugs you describe, and the non-glowing part of the bodies was pale.  They didn't blink like lightning bugs, but continued to glow steadily throughout the evening.  We never identified them, and the locals seemed to think we were kind of nuts when we described them.

 

We'll go out looking for them tonight.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

 

"Scott C. Reuman" <scottreuman@isp.com> wrote:

Has anyone else seen tiny glow bugs around here? Not lightning bugs, no
flying going on, but glowing butts just like a tiny (1-2mm) lightning bug
but stuck to the ground. First I've ever seen was last night about 9:45.
Pretty. wild.

Scott
******************************
Scott Campbell Reuman
Artist/Writer
Conundrum Designs, Inc.
Nederland, CO
http://www.conundrumdesigns.com
scottreuman@conundrumdesigns.com

[puma-news] Sleeping Bat

Even after 5 years of installing a bat house on supposedly a sunny
morning spot, I've never spotted a bat using it. Early this morning,
Debbie spotted a bat sleeping on our tree near the bedroom...right out
in the open at eye level! And it was on the northwest side of the tree
which wasn't where we would have expected it. The head is pointed
downward in these two photos.

Bats are great for killing mosquitoes if you wonder why encourage them.

greg